Medieval Kven rulers of Europe

[WatchDog]

Based on the medieval sources below, the ruling families of England, Ireland, Normandy, Norway, the Orkney Islands, Russia, Scotland and Sweden - among others - descended from the kings of Kvenland and Finland.

In 97 AD, the Roman historian P.G. Tacitus describes Kvens (Sitones), living north of the Suiones (Swedes), and says that they are led by a woman.

In 320 AD (c.), Nór, a royal Kven descendant of King Fornjót, establishes Norway, based on the information given in the 1230 AD Orkneyinga saga and the 1387 AD Hversu Noregr byggðist ('How Norway was settled'). The royal lineages sprung from him and his brother Gór are discussed in these and other medieval sources.

In 551 AD, the Roman historian Jordanes' writing in the 'De origine actibusque Getarum', a.k.a. Getica, about the 'Vinoviloth' is viewed by many historians as a reference to the Kvens:

And there are beyond these the Eastern Geats (Ostrogothae), Romerike (Raumarici), Rankike (Aeragnaricii), and the most gentle Finni, milder than all the inhabitants of Scandinavia (Scandza). Like them are the Vinoviloth (Kvens) also.

Getica - compiled in Constantinople - tells about the origins and history of the Gothic people. It also mentions the "Adogit" people, living in the far north in Scadinavia ("Scandza"). This is seen as a possible reference to the petty kingdom of Hålogaland, which based on medieval evidence was inhabited by the Kvens in the middle of the first millennium, but perhaps also a long before.

According to Emeritus Professor Kyösti Julku (Kvenland - Kainuunmaa, 1986), in the modern-day Northern Norwegian county of Troms alone there are at least 12 prehistoric Kven place names. During Viking Age, Troms formed the northernmost part of Hålogaland.

Alex Woolf (From Pictland to Alba, 2007) links the name Hålogaland to the Aurora Borealis - the "Northern Lights" -, saying that Hålogaland meant the "Land of the High Fire", "loga" deriving from 'logi', which refers to fire.

In the medieval accounts of Ynglingatal and Skáldskaparmál, "Logi" is described as the personification of fire, a fire giant, and as a "son of Fornjót". In the medieval Orkneyinga saga and the account of 'Hversu Noregr byggðist', Fornjót is described as the King of Finland, Kvenland and Gotland. The royal lineages sprung from his children are discussed in other medieval accounts.

The beginning of the 'Þorsteins saga Víkingssonar' ('Saga of Thorstein son of Víking') discusses King Logi who ruled the country north of Norway. Because Logi was larger and stronger than any other man in land, his name was lengthened from Logi to Hálogi, meaning 'High-Logi', and derived from that name his country became called Hálogaland, "Hálogi's-land" (modern-day Hålogaland, a.k.a. Halogaland).

In 600 AD (c.), according to the 'Old English' poem Wildsith, Finland is ruled by King Caelic.

In 750 AD (c.), the Norna-Gests þáttr saga mentions that the king of Denmark and Sweden Sigurd Ring fought against the invading Finnic Curonians and Kvens in the southernmost part of today's Sweden:

"Sigurd Ring (Sigurðr) was not there, since he had to defend his land, Sweden (Svíþjóð), since Curonians and Kvens were raiding there."

In 760 AD, Kvens and Norse cooperate in battling against the invading Karelians, according to Egil's saga (c. 1240 AD).

In 862 AD (c.), Prince Rurik founds Russia, according to the Primary Chronicle (1113 AD). Based on medieval sources, Rurik was from the modern-day area of Stockholm, a part of the historical Kvenland. Recent DNA studies confirm Rurik to have been Finnic.

In 873 AD, the Kvens and Norse cooperate in battling against the invading Kareliansm according to the Egil's saga (written in c. 1240 AD). The chapter XVII of Egil's saga describes how Thorolf Kveldulfsson (King of Norway's tax chief starting 872 AD) from Namdalen, located in the southernmost tip of the historic Hålogaland, goes to Kvenland again:

"That same winter Thorolf went up on the fell with a hundred men; he passed on at once eastwards to Kvenland and met King Faravid."

Based on medieval documents, the above meeting took place during the winter of 873-874 AD.

In 880 AD (c.), the oldest known written use of the term 'Kven', with nearly that spelling, is made in the 'Account of the Viking Othere', a report of the geopolitical landscape of the North, based on the Norse Viking adventurer Ottar's voyage through the oceanic coasts of Northern Scandinavia and today's extreme Northwestern Russia.

In this account, the Kvens are referred to as "Cwenas" who live in "Cwena land". This was the first genuine and comprehensive account of the North. Thus, it is a principle source in studies relating to the Nordic history.

In 890 AD, Ottar reports the findings to King Alfred of Wessex, who has Ottar's account included to the omissions and additions added to the Universal History of Orosius, republished by King Alfred. The book is partially work of Orosius and partially of King Alfred.

The Kven Sea is mentioned as the northern border for ancient Germany. The location of Kvenland is also explained in the following ways:

Ottar (Ohthere) said that the Norwegians' (Norðmanna) land was very long and very narrow ... and to the east are wild mountains, parallel to the cultivated land. Sami people (Finnas) inhabit these mountains ... Then along this land southwards, on the other side of the mountain (sic), is Sweden ... and along that land northwards, Kvenland (Cwenaland).

The Cwenas (Kvens) sometimes make depredations on the Northmen over the mountain, and sometimes the Northmen on them; there are very large freshwater meres amongst the mountains, and the Kvens carry their ships over land into the meres, and thence make depredations on the Northmen; they have very little ships, and very light.

(Notably, there is a reference in the Orkneyinga saga to the southern Norwegian lake district, including Lake Mjøsa, an area which was inhabited at that time: the Orkneyinga saga tells how these inhabitants were attacked by men from Kvenland.)

... the Swedes (Sweons) have to the south of them the arm of the sea called East (Osti), and to the east of them Sarmatia (Sermende), and to the north, over the wastes, is Kvenland (Cwenland), to the northwest are the Sami people (Scridefinnas), and the Norwegians (Norðmenn) are to the west.

In 1075 AD, the German chronicler Adam of Bremen discusses Kvens in 'Gesta'. He calls Kvenland "Terra Feminarum" ("Women's Territory"), paralleling the remarks made by P.C. Tacitus in 97 AD.

In 1154 AD, the Arab historian and scientist Muhammad al-Idrisi tells that the King of FMRK has possessions in Norway.

"Fmrk" refers to the modern-day Norwegian province of Finnmark ("Finn" "land"), a part of the historic Kvenland.

In 1157 AD (c.), in his geographical chronicle 'Leiðarvísir og borgarskipan', the Icelandic Abbot Níkulás Bergsson (Nikolaos) provides descriptions of the lands near Norway:

Closest to Denmark is little Sweden (Svíþjóð), there is Öland (Eyland); then is Gotland (Gotland); then Hälsingland (Helsingaland); then Värmland (Vermaland); then two Kvenlands (Kvenlönd), and they extend to north of Bjarmia (Bjarmalandi).

In 1170 AD, Historia Norvegiae tells about Kvenland. According to it, the Kvens served pagan gods.

In 1187 AD, the "capitol" of the Sveas (Swedes) Sigtuna is raided and burned by attack from easterly direction. Swedish Eric's Chronicle in 1335 AD blames the Finnish Karelians for the offense, perhaps because by then a large part of the historic Kvenland had aready become a part of Sweden, which now planned attacks against the Karelians.

Professor Kustaa Vilkuna presumesthe Sigtuna raid to likely have been a revenge for the Sigtuna merchants having intruded Kven fisheries at the River Kemijoki and having paid uninvited visits to the hunting grounds of the Karelians. Accordingly, it is possible that the Kvens raided Sigtuna or the Kvens and Karelians together.

The medieval naming of a settlement - a group of houses - in the village of Liedakkala by the River Kemijoki as "Sihtuuna" may be an additional sign of this.

In 1216 AD, the Danish historian Saxo Grammaticus writes in 'Gesta Danorum' about Finnish and Kven kings and about the Scandinavian royal families.

Grammaticus' account shares likeness, many characters and stories with the writings of Snorri Sturluson. According to both, many heroic Scandinavian figures have Finnish/Kven roots.

In reference to the legendary Battle of Bråvalla (c. 750), where the Swedes fought the Geats, Grammaticus names a few such heros:

''Now the bravest of the Swedes were these: Arwakki, Keklu-Karl ..."

In 1220 AD, in the Ynglinga Saga, the Icelandic bishop, poet and historian Snorri Sturluson discusses marriages between and wars of Finnish and Swedish royal families.

The saga tells about the Ynglings, the oldest known Scandinavian dynasty and a semi-legendary royal Swedish clan during the Age of Migrations, 300–700 AD. The clan's kings, including e.g. King Ongenpeow (d. c. 515 AD) and his sons Onela and Ohthere, descended from Kven kings.

The spelling "Ongenpeow" is believed to refer to 'Ongenpoika' ("fisher boy" in Finnish) or 'Onnenpoika' ("lucky boy").

"Onela" (Onnela) in Finnish means "happy place". The double consonants of Finnish names (such as Onnela) are regularly substituted by a single consonant in Germanic texts (as in "Onela"), even today.

"Ohthere" derives from the Proto-Norse 'Ōhtaharjaz'. 'Ohtaharjas' is Finnish, "ohta" meaning "forehead" in the Ostrobothnian dialect of Finnish, and "Harjas" meaning "bristle", "prickle" and "brush" in Finnish. Historians widely agree Ostrobothnia to have been the central area of Kvenland.

Among other Kven leaders, these kings led the Swedes (Swedish: Svea/r) in battles against their southern neighbors, the Geats (Swedish: Göta/r), in the modern-day area of Southern Sweden at the time when approximately 2/3 of today's area of Sweden was inhabited and ruled by the Kvens.

'Ynglings' also refers to the Fairhair dynasty, descending from the Kven kings of Oppland, Norway, who had sprung from Nór's great-grandson Halfdan the Old. According to Orkneyinga Saga, Nór founded Norway. He was a direct descendant of Fornjót, the King of Finland, Kvenland and Gotland.

In 1220 AD (c.), in the Skáldskaparmál section of Edda, Snorri Sturluson discusses King Halfdan the Old, Nór's (Kven King Fornjót's descendant) great-grandson and his nine sons who are the forefathers of various royal lineages, including "... Yngvi, from whom the Ynglings are descended".

In Skáldskaparmál, Snorri Sturluson also points in another way to the Finnish/Kven origin of the royal Yngling dynasty:

"One war-king was named Skelfir; and his house is called the House of Skilfings: his kindred is in Eastern Land."

At the time of Sturluson's statement above, in the early 13th century, the Swedish name commonly used for the modern-day area of Southern Finland was "Eastern Land", Österland in Swedish, referring to the eastern part of what was forming to become the Realm of Sweden.

From 1353 up to 1809, "Sweden proper" included (a gradually increasing part of) the present-day Republic of Finland as a fully integrated part of the realm, officially referred to as Österland ("Eastern Land"). After 1809 however the use of the term has been to distinguish the western part from the former eastern half of the realm, or Sweden from Finland.

In 1230 AD, the introduction to the Orkneyinga Saga - a.k.a. Fundinn Noregr ('Foundation of Norway') - provides information about Fornjót, the "King of Finland and Kvenland" and the conquest of Norway by his descendant, Nór. The saga also provides details on the royal descendants of Gór, Nór's brother.

Based on the information given in this saga, the ruling families of Sweden, Norway, the Orkney Islands, Normandy and England descend from these Finnish and Kven kings.

The saga tells that the southern Norwegian lake district, including Lake Mjøsa (100 kilometers north from the modern-day Oslo), were attacked by men from Kvenland.

In 1240 AD (c.), the Egil's saga tells how the Kvens and Norse cooperate in battling against the invading Karelians. In chapter XVII, Thorolf Kveldulfsson (he became the King of Norway's tax chief in 872 AD) from Namdalen, located in the southernmost tip of the historic Hålogaland, goes to Kvenland again:

"That same winter Thorolf went up on the fell with a hundred men; he passed on at once eastwards to Kvenland and met King Faravid."

Based on medieval documents, the above meeting took place during the winter of 873-874 AD.

In 1251 AD, the Karelians fight against the Norwegians.

In 1271 AD, Icelandic annals report the following to have happened in the mid-northern part of today's Norway: "Then Karelians and Kvens pillaged widely in Hålogaland."

In 1320 AD (through 1335 AD), the Swedish "Eric's Chronicle" ('Erikskrönikan') is printed. It blames the Finnic Karelians for the burning of the Swedes' "capitol", Sigtuna, in 1187 AD. A large part of the historical Kvenland and lands of the Sveas have by now melted together into a one new nation of Sweden. This may be the reason why the Kvens are not blamed for the 1½ centuries old fire. Besides, attacks against the Karelian were being planned at the time when the chronicle was written.

In 1387 AD, Hversu Noregr byggðist traces the royal descendants of the primeval Finnish/Kven king Fornjót.

In 1438 AD, an influential farmer of Vesilahti - in the area of the modern-day Finland -, named David, declares himself the King of Finland and begins to lead a dangerous peasant revolt. The revolt is defeated, however.

In 1539 AD, the map of Scandinavia by Olaus Magnus shows a Kven settlement roughly in between today's Tromsa and Lofoten, named "Berkara Qvenar".

In 1543 AD, Finnish clergyman Mikael Agricola finishes his translation of the New Testament into Finnish. The book is published in 1548 and it is named 'Se Wsi Testamenti'.

The book's introduction by Agricola includes a fictitious story about "crusades" to Finland, originally presented in the oldest Swedish historical account and oldest surviving literary work originating from Sweden, the "Eric's Chronicle" ('Erikskrönikan' in Swedish), written by an unknown author between about 1320 and 1335 AD. In mid 1500s AD, the first known Norwegian tax records discuss Kvens living in and near Hålagoland, the first known kingdom in what today is Norway.

In 1551 AD, Mikael Agricola publishes book named "Psalms of David" ('Daavidin psalttari'). The book includes a list of ancient Finnish gods, and it names several Finnish kings.

In 1554 AD, a history written by Johannes Magnus, expelled from Sweden for being Catholic, is published in Rome. In the book, Finland is represented as an ancient kingdom.

In 1555 AD, the famous work by Olaus Magnus, 'A Description of the Northern Peoples', is published. Finland is described as an old kingdom.

In 1598 AD (through 1599 AD), Finnish nobility and castle commanders fight on the side of King Sigismund against Duke Charles in the Swedish Civil War - e. g. in a campaign targeting the areas of Upland and Stockholm. Other Finns participated on both camps. After the victory of Charles, hard times begin for the Finnish nobility and clergy, with the launching of intentional and persistent Swedification.

In 1607 AD, once King Karl IX of Sweden had strengthened his hold on the crown of Sweden, he appended to it the title 'King of the Caijaners', referring to the inhabitants of Kainuu/Kvenland, apparently using the title the first time on March 16, 1607.

However, Kainuu (Kvenland) "occupied a separate position from the rest of Finland for a long time to come" (Julku, 1986), and a large part of Kvenland never became a part of Sweden.

In 1611 AD (through 1616 AD), Helsinki-born Finnish priest, historian and scientist Sigfridus Aronus Forsius publishes the "Chronicle of Finland" ('Suomen kronikka'), in which he discusses the background of Finnish people. Forsius is imprisoned twice for political conspiracy and treason against the King of Sweden. Only fragments of Forsius' chronicle have survived up to date.

In 1616 AD (through 1635 AD), - while in prison due to political reasons - Johannes Messenius writes the "Rhyme Chronicle of Finland and its Inhabitants" ('Rimkrönika om Finland och dess invånare'). The book is published in 1774 by history professor Johan Bilmark. In the book, Messenius tells about Finnish kings.

In 1650 AD, Michael Wexionius represents Finland as an ancient kingdom in his history.

In 1670s AD, the "Finnish Chronicle by Anonymous" enlists the ancient Finnish kings.

In 1700 AD, the "Old and New Turku" by Daniel Juslenius is published. In it, Finland is presented as an ancient kingdom.

In 1700 AD (through 1705 AD), "Scondia Illustrata" by Johannes Messenius is printed. In it, Finnish kings are dealt with in depth.

In 1728 AD, the 'Chronicle of Finland' by an anonymous author appears in a publication called "Schwedische Bibliothek".

In 1742 AD, a political move by the Russian Empress Elizabeth, a manifest on the independence of Finland, causes commotion following the "War of the Hats". Turku, Finland, serves as the location for a Diet to elect a king for Finland. The elected king is Peter III, the later Czar, then the heir apparent. However, the Russians withdraw from the project and peace is concluded with Sweden in 1743.

In 1768 AD, the historian Tatishchev relates about Finnish kings in his "Russian Chronicle".

In 1769 AD, "Svea Rikes Historia" by Sven Bring is published. In it, Finland is still an ancient kingdom. Additional editions are printed in 1778, 1784 and 1790.

In 1783 AD (through 1784 AD), the Russian empress Catherine the Great publishes an article about Russian history in which she considers Rurik, regarded as founder of Russia, to be a Finnish prince. The work is published in German in 1786.

In 1784 AD (through 1800 AD), Henrik Gabriel Porthan publishes the "Finnish Bishops' Chronicle" by Paul Juusten, with a commentary. Porthan denies the existence of the Finnish rulers as well as any independent government in Finland before the formation of Sweden-Finland.

Porthan's reasoning is unfounded. For example, he claims that there could not have been kings in Finland since there were no "castle mountains" either. Porthan's attacks become understandable taking into consideration the fact that at the same time Count Georg Magnus Sprengtporten promoted in Russia a plan of an independent Finland, separate from the rest of Sweden.

In 1789 AD, Finland is represented as an ancient kingdom in "Mythologia Fennica" by Christfrid Ganander.

In 1918 AD, October 9, Prince Frederick Charles of Hesse was elected to the throne of the Kingdom of Finland, to become Charles I, King of Finland. Up to date, he has been the last "Kven king", a decsendant of the ancient Kven kings, or anyone - for that matter - to have been named for this position.

However, after the armistice between the belligerents of World War I was signed on November 11, 1918, warnings from the West convinced the Finnish government to ask the German-born Frederick to give up the crown, which he officially had not come wear in Finland at this point yet. The king-elect Frederick renounced the throne on December 14, 1918. Finland subsequently adopted a republican constitution.
The historic phases of the image of Finland described above show that facts about the Finns' active and independent role as a nation were silenced and information on Finnish culture etc. were begun to be "explained away" at a time when the interests of Finland and Sweden started to clash. Finnish obedience to the Crown was ensured by lying about history. In today's falsification and obscuring of history, the reasons are similar. It is not desirable that we take a healthy pride in our own ethnic background, nor are we allowed to have any common positive experiences as Finns. Finnish history before the year 1250 has been silenced into non-existence; the legends of King Eric and Bishop Henry are perpetuated as truth; the results of modern genetic research about the European genetic connection of the Finns is interpreted in an unintelligible manner to humor the Swedophiles, and our survival in the 2nd World War still seems to be a matter of shame and not of satisfaction. The only things "Finnish" on which we are allowed to pride ourselves without the "media powers" getting apoplectic are Kekkonen, Tom of Finland, and Vampira. However, since we are unable to change our descent, it may be well-founded to form our own view on what it is and was to be Finnish.

[WatchDog]

Kven clan lineages



Hversu Noregr byggðist ('How Norway was inhabited') is an account of the origin of various legendary Norwegian lineages. It traces the descendants of the primeval Finnish ruler Fornjót down to Nór, who is here the eponym and first great king of Norway, and then gives details of the descendants of Nór and of his brother Gór in the following section known as the Ættartölur ('Genealogies', a.k.a. Fundinn Noregr, 'Founding of Norway').

The Hversu account is closely paralleled by the opening of the Orkneyinga saga.

The 'genealogies' also shows that many heroic families famed in Scandinavian tradition but not located in Norway were of a Finn-Kven stock, mostly sprung from Nór's great-grandson Halfdan the Old.

Almost all the lineages sprung from Halfdan are then shown to lead to the person of Harald Fairhair, the first king of "all Norway". This information can be confirmed in other sources.

The 'Ættartölur' account ends to a genealogy of Harald's royal descendants down to Olaf IV of Norway with the statement that the account was written in 1387, and with a list of the kings of Norway from this Olaf back to Harald Fair-hair.

King Fornjót


Fornjót (Fornjótr in Old Norse) was an ancient giant in Norse mythology and a King of Finland. His children are Ægir (a.k.a. Hlér, ruler of seas), Logi (fire giant) and Kári (god of wind).

The name has often been interpreted as forn-jótr, "ancient giant", and because of this Karl Simrock (1869) identified Formjót with the primeval giant Ymir.

In 1818, historian Müller suggested that Fornjót is one in a well-established group of names or titles of gods under the term 'njótr', referring to "user, owner, possessor".

This would make Fornjót the "original owner" (primus occupans vel utens) of Norway.

Fornjót is mentioned in the 9th century Ynglingatal, skaldic ("courtly") poem listing the kings of the House of Ynglings, the oldest royal dynasty in Scandinadia.

In Ynglingatal, "son of Fornjót" seems to refer to fire, just like in Skáldskaparmál, one of the three distinct books of Snorri Sturluson'd Prose Edda, in c. 1220 AD, in this manner:

"How should the wind be periphrased? Thus: call it son of Fornjót, Brother of the Sea and of Fire, Scathe or Ruin or Hound or Wolf of the Wood or of the Sail or of the Rigging."


Fornjót's offspring

Fornjót's son Kári is mentioned in Skáldskaparmál as a term for wind. In the Hversu and Orkneyinga saga accounts Kári appears to be the heir to his father's kingdoms, as in the Hversu account Kári's descendants emerge not only as rulers of Finland and Kvenland, but also Sweden, and then through Viking and Varangian conquests many other nations as well.

Kári' son is named Frosti ('frost') according to the Orkneyinga saga but Jökul (jǫkull, 'icicle, ice, glacier') according to the Hversu account. He is the father of Snær the Old ('Snow the Old'), who according to Sturlaugs saga is also the King of Finnmark, i.e. the northermost part Scandinavia and Kvenland.

Snær's daughter Drifa married King Vanlandi of Upsal, Sweden, as stated e.g. in the Ynglinga saga. Their son' Visbur became the King of the House of Ynglings, succeeded by his son Dómaldi, King of Sweden.

Snaer was succeeded by his son Thorri as the King of Kvenland, Finland and Gotland. Thorri's children were Gói ('Thin Snow'), Gór and Nór, who was the founder of Norway and frorefather for Halfdan the Old, of whom many royal families of Europe sprang from.

Based on Ynglinga saga, Frosti's daughter Skjálf married the King Agni of Sweden. He was succeeded by the legendary Swedish King Yngvi, according to the Íslendingabók and the Historia Norwegiæ. However, the Ynglingatal gives the sons Alrekr and Eirikr as Agne's successors.



In Orkneyinga saga



"There was a king called Fornjót who ruled over Finland and Kvenland, the countries stretching to the east of what we call the Gulf of Bothnia, which lies opposite the White Sea. Fornjót had three sons, Hler (whom we also call AEgir), a second called Logi and a third, Kari, the father of Frosti, who was in turn the father of Snaer the Old, the father of Thorri. He had two sons, Nór and Gór and a daughter, Gói."

According to legend, Fornjót was also the father of Karl, Hlessey, and Gmir. Nór founded Norway (Nór's way) and Gor was known as the "Sea King".

Goi was abducted by Hrolf of Bjard, son of the giant Svadi. Nór challenged Hrolf for the return of his sister and the battle ended with Nór getting Hrolf's sister for his wife and Hrolf keeping Goi as his wife.

The Orkneyinga Saga goes on to say:

"Earl Rognvald campaigned with King Harald Fine Hair who gave him charge of North More, South More and Romsdale. Earl Rognvald married Ragnhild, the daughter of Hrolf Nose, and it was their son, Hrolf, who conquered Normandy.

This Hrolf was so big that no horse could carry him, which is why he was given the name Gongu-Hrolf. The earls of Rouen and the kings of England are descended from him."

Neighbors of Kvens

The chronicle of King Alfred the Great from 890 AD states what other historic accounts and maps confirm:

On Viking Age, Scandinavia was inhabited by the Lapps, the Norse, the Suiones of Svealand in and the Kvens.

The Norse (ancestors of Norwegians) and the Suiones (ancestors of Swedes) inhabited the southern half of the Scandinavian peninsula.

The norhern half of Scandinavia and northern Finland were inhabited by the Lapps (i.e. Sami) and the Kvens. That area was Kvenland.

What was referred to as Finland in the Middle Ages, was the southern and southwestern parts of today's Finland.

"Finland" was inhabited by Finnic tribes such as the Tavastians (hämäläiset) in the west and the Savonians (savolaiset) northeast from them.

The Finnic tribe of Bjärmians ('vienankarjalaiset') lived east from the Kvens, on the shores of the White Sea and the surrounding areas in today's Northwestern Russia.

Karelians inhabitad the territories east and southeast from Kvenland.

The chronicle by King Alfred the Great mentiones that Kvenland was located around big bodies of waters (presumably the Atlantic and Arctic Oceans, Gulf of Bothnia - a.k.a. Kven Sea, Kainuunmeri in Finnish -, White Sea), by large fjords (e.g. Varangerfjord), by large lakes (Lake Inari, Lake Oulu. etc.), and by large rivers ( Kainuunväylä - "Kvenland River", a.k.a. Kalix River, Torne River, Kemijoki River, etc.).


World's oldest known fishing net, from Finland, dated to c. 8300 AD.

[Pana]

That...was a lot of reading, WD.

Okay. Sort something out for me cause I think I missed it:

What do you mean about the suppression of Finnic history before 1257? (I think that was the date).

Also, an interesting side note:
Agni is the fire god of the Rig Veda, one of the older gods presumably carried on in the tradition of proto indo aryans. Corresponds well with your Logi. Again whispers of the linguistic connections from antiquity.

[WatchDog]

That...was a lot of reading, WD.

Okay. Sort something out for me cause I think I missed it:

What do you mean about the suppression of Finnic history before 1257? (I think that was the date).

Also, an interesting side note:
Agni is the fire god of the Rig Veda, one of the older gods presumably carried on in the tradition of proto indo aryans. Corresponds well with your Logi. Again whispers of the linguistic connections from antiquity.

1257 was when the swedes made the 3dcrusade against finland, or Kveen, and slaughtered the nobilities here, we was basicly under swedes rule from 1257-1809 as slaves. somethings cant be changed as the dates when the swedes made the crusade`s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Swedish_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Swedish_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Swedish_Crusade

just soem facts no one can ignore, i`m Proud to be a Kveen, im going to start to use it, its my heritage

all the sagas ive read, ive read alot fo em, most of em are just pure fiction, but there is does what goes hand in hand with the history and them ive added here.

[Pana]

It says the Swedes conquered the Finns and brought Christianity...

Prior to that what form of worship was being practiced by the Finns?

Its great to be proud of your heritage and I'm enjoying the snippets of history that you are bringing from northern Europe.

[WatchDog]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_paganism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_mythology

funny thing is, where there is churches from the 1260ths and so on, they are built on the places where the ancient finns did worship the old gods, they did it so it would be easier to convert us in to the shitty religion of christianity, im my self a Spirtiualist/Shamnist believer i have for a long time tried to practise the old religion, and ppl call me a pagan lol, whats pagan about it? nothing at all, its the old gods, the old ways.

[Pana]

Conquering societies always build or take over the existing places of worship. It's a very psychologically way of saying, "you guys are done for". Even Islam took over the pre-existing Kaaba rock that the tribes worshipped.

I'll read more on your mythology. The Finnish culture is unique.

[lkwalker]

That...was a lot of reading, WD.

Okay. Sort something out for me cause I think I missed it:

What do you mean about the suppression of Finnic history before 1257? (I think that was the date).

Also, an interesting side note:
Agni is the fire god of the Rig Veda, one of the older gods presumably carried on in the tradition of proto indo aryans. Corresponds well with your Logi. Again whispers of the linguistic connections from antiquity.

1257 was when the swedes made the 3dcrusade against finland, or Kveen, and slaughtered the nobilities here, we was basicly under swedes rule from 1257-1809 as slaves. somethings cant be changed as the dates when the swedes made the crusade`s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Swedish_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Swedish_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Swedish_Crusade

just soem facts no one can ignore, i`m Proud to be a Kveen, im going to start to use it, its my heritage

all the sagas ive read, ive read alot fo em, most of em are just pure fiction, but there is does what goes hand in hand with the history and them ive added here.

Thanks, mang. I'm a Kveen fan now too. Keep the faith!

[WatchDog]

That...was a lot of reading, WD.

Okay. Sort something out for me cause I think I missed it:

What do you mean about the suppression of Finnic history before 1257? (I think that was the date).

Also, an interesting side note:
Agni is the fire god of the Rig Veda, one of the older gods presumably carried on in the tradition of proto indo aryans. Corresponds well with your Logi. Again whispers of the linguistic connections from antiquity.

1257 was when the swedes made the 3dcrusade against finland, or Kveen, and slaughtered the nobilities here, we was basicly under swedes rule from 1257-1809 as slaves. somethings cant be changed as the dates when the swedes made the crusade`s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Swedish_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Swedish_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Swedish_Crusade

just soem facts no one can ignore, i`m Proud to be a Kveen, im going to start to use it, its my heritage

all the sagas ive read, ive read alot fo em, most of em are just pure fiction, but there is does what goes hand in hand with the history and them ive added here.

Thanks, mang. I'm a Kveen fan now too. Keep the faith!

Thnak you BE, i could not post these links on Amkon, for various reasons, why i can post there any serious posts, they would be ruined by madmen lol, its a fun forum tho, but i like it here

[WatchDog]

Conquering societies always build or take over the existing places of worship. It's a very psychologically way of saying, "you guys are done for". Even Islam took over the pre-existing Kaaba rock that the tribes worshipped.

I'll read more on your mythology. The Finnish culture is unique.

The Kaba rock is a Meteorite, no one knows much else about it tho, and yea all religions does, it, and our culture is very unique as so many others are. and btw the story about Sampo (An Item from Kalevala, Karelian Mythology) we have goes hand in hand with a chinese mythology, or was it tibetan i dont remember now.