Some Christmas History

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WatchDog
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Re: Some Christmas History

Post by WatchDog » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:40 pm

Pana wrote:Joe.

I think you need to read the study in the link I provided.
Do you feel I attack you, Joe? I will admit I find you very closed minded and prone to over generalizing things with a penchant for trying to provoke people whom you have termed to be bull shitters but aside from that, and for the most part, it's a pleasure to be having this discussion.
Wise words.
Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people. Carl Sagan

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lkwalker
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Re: Some Christmas History

Post by lkwalker » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:22 pm

Worth posting again...

BE's Principles of Episemology

A. An open mind unrestrained by skepticism is credulity
B. Skepticism with a closed mind is debunkery
C. Consider everything/ believe nothing
D. Smoke em if ya got em


Joe is a B in violation of C. :lol:
"If you don't think to good, don't think too much." Yogi

averagejoe
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Re: Some Christmas History

Post by averagejoe » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:08 pm

Pana wrote:Joe.

I think you need to read the study in the link I provided. You say, "Everybody that ever died, stayed dead. Nobody has died (you aren't dead until your BRAIN is dead) and came back from it." This statement is false. The study was done on patients that were dead (no heart beat and no brain waves which is the medical definition of dead) and were resuscitated.

Okay, I see a discrepency in language here and its interesting:

Clinical death versus brain death.

Okay, Joe, I concede brain death is the end and nobody has come back from brain death that we know of. However, in clinical death they have. So to revise this let's say that in clinical death situations some witnesses report: being out of their body, seeing a light, water, tunnel and meeting someone beyond the light, tunnel and/or water. Do you discount these as being invalid?

Do you feel I attack you, Joe? I will admit I find you very closed minded and prone to over generalizing things with a penchant for trying to provoke people whom you have termed to be bull shitters but aside from that, and for the most part, it's a pleasure to be having this discussion.
Pana, brain death the legal term is the only death that means properly dead. The "clinical" death varies from country to country.

Why don't brain dead people come back? Because they're dead! I mean really dead.

I don't dismiss claims of near death experiences as "invalid" and note that they have happened - whether they are real or hallucinations I don't know and we'll leave that to investigators.

Also, I need you to note the terminology "near death experience" - there are no "actually dead experiences".

You should have noted on the link I gave you that medically, more and more medics are seeking certain brain death before declaring someone clinically dead.

The bottom line is nobody that talks of these experiences ever experienced actual brain death, so as far as I'm concerned it's all a moot point and I still see no reason to assume that a dead brain can experience consciousness.

The only way to truly find out is by thawing cryogenically frozen people, bringing them back to life, and asking them the question.

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IndicusMaximus
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Re: Some Christmas History

Post by IndicusMaximus » Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:15 am

lkwalker wrote:Worth posting again...

BE's Principles of Episemology

A. An open mind unrestrained by skepticism is credulity
B. Skepticism with a closed mind is debunkery
C. Consider everything/ believe nothing
D. Smoke em if ya got em


Joe is a B in violation of C. :lol:
E. The Fourth Reich is here, and Jews control it!

Happy hanukkah, my chosen people.

Signed,
King of the Jews
Blessed are the poor in spirit, for they will see God.

Under the shadow of thy wings, Jehovah.

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Pana
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Re: Some Christmas History

Post by Pana » Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:35 am

averagejoe wrote:
Pana wrote:Joe.

I think you need to read the study in the link I provided. You say, "Everybody that ever died, stayed dead. Nobody has died (you aren't dead until your BRAIN is dead) and came back from it." This statement is false. The study was done on patients that were dead (no heart beat and no brain waves which is the medical definition of dead) and were resuscitated.

Okay, I see a discrepency in language here and its interesting:

Clinical death versus brain death.

Okay, Joe, I concede brain death is the end and nobody has come back from brain death that we know of. However, in clinical death they have. So to revise this let's say that in clinical death situations some witnesses report: being out of their body, seeing a light, water, tunnel and meeting someone beyond the light, tunnel and/or water. Do you discount these as being invalid?

Do you feel I attack you, Joe? I will admit I find you very closed minded and prone to over generalizing things with a penchant for trying to provoke people whom you have termed to be bull shitters but aside from that, and for the most part, it's a pleasure to be having this discussion.
Pana, brain death the legal term is the only death that means properly dead. The "clinical" death varies from country to country.

Why don't brain dead people come back? Because they're dead! I mean really dead.

I don't dismiss claims of near death experiences as "invalid" and note that they have happened - whether they are real or hallucinations I don't know and we'll leave that to investigators.

Also, I need you to note the terminology "near death experience" - there are no "actually dead experiences".

You should have noted on the link I gave you that medically, more and more medics are seeking certain brain death before declaring someone clinically dead.

The bottom line is nobody that talks of these experiences ever experienced actual brain death, so as far as I'm concerned it's all a moot point and I still see no reason to assume that a dead brain can experience consciousness.

The only way to truly find out is by thawing cryogenically frozen people, bringing them back to life, and asking them the question.
Okay, this I can accept. Two streams: clinical death experiences versus brain death no experiences. I accept your logic. Sometimes it pays to hash things out. :)

Also, RE: out of body experiences in clinical death. A UK cardiologist has been working on a research project for the past three years focusing on NDE's for cardiac arrest patients. He devised a simple test of fastening shelves high in the room (above head height) and placed sheets of paper on them adorned with some kind of picture. The premise is to ask the percentage of NDE'ers if they seen these pictures when they were floating above their bodies.
“Integrity has no need of rules.”

-Albert Camus

averagejoe
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Re: Some Christmas History

Post by averagejoe » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:34 pm

Yep. And nobody has seen the pictures yet.

Which isn't great.

If ever it could be proven that "you" could leave your "body" be it in sleep, or near death, the implications for after actual death would be MASSIVE and I accept that.

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Pana
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Re: Some Christmas History

Post by Pana » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:48 pm

Oh, have you read the final results from the study? My understanding is that he has yet to publish or submit to a journal. If he has, could you point me in the direction of it?

Another strain of thought I had this , is if the percentage of nde's who have these experiences and they could be validated by study, the process that they go through could be the start of brain death. In other words, by not returning their brains would register flat line.

I don't know. Like I said, if you have come across his published study, I would like to read it.
“Integrity has no need of rules.”

-Albert Camus

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Pana
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Re: Some Christmas History

Post by Pana » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:18 pm

RE: UK Study, pictures above head height, NDE's.

Taken from an update dated, August 8, 2011:

Update on AWARE Study from UK Hospital

UK hospital in the midst of AWARE project...A recent article indicates the international AWARE study is proceeding towards its targeted conclusion next year. Dr. Sam Parnia, one of the project originators, mentions interesting results but provides no clues about whether a target has been identified by an out-of-body experiencer. He said: “The evidence that is interesting to me is that, contrary to my training, the entity we call the human mind and consciousness appears to continue to exist during the early stage of death.” In another recent interview , Dr. Parnia stated that study results will be published in late 2011 or early 2012, at the earliest.

Take from here: http://iands.org/news/news/front-page-n ... pital.html

And there's various print interviews citing the same dates.
“Integrity has no need of rules.”

-Albert Camus

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Dr Exile
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Re: Some Christmas History

Post by Dr Exile » Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:07 pm

The little girl at the top of the stairs in my house has been brain dead for 200 years, yet she still sings.
Credo quia absurdum.

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Pana
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Re: Some Christmas History

Post by Pana » Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:30 pm

:rofl:
“Integrity has no need of rules.”

-Albert Camus

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